For the most accurate transcript, Apple Podcasts now includes them in the episodes on their app. Below is the raw transcript prior to having the preroll and postroll material. The time stamps aren't exactly correct, but the content should be pretty accurate. I hope this helps the show be more accessible to everyone. -Vicki Davis
Transcript
Vicki Davis (00:01)
I am so excited to talk to my friend, George Couros about his new book and he will say, our new book, What Makes a Great Principal? The Five Pillars of Effective School Leadership. Now, first of all, George, what makes this book different?
George Couros (00:08)
I will.
Well, as you said, it's our book. And before we start, like, it was such an honor to have you as a part of this, I've known you for, I want to say forever, but I haven't known you forever. I've known you for such a long time. I'm just honored.
to have you as part of this book, as well as Allyson Apsey who is technically my co -author. But we have 15 contributors, including yourself, and each wrote their own chapter on what makes a great principal. And I think that's what actually separates this book, is that a lot of times it's superintendents, it's school, admin talking about this. And although we did include, obviously, principal voices, I was a principal, Allyson was a principal for a much longer time, I work with principals.
We really wanted to get the voice of teachers, students, instructional coaches, different people to say what they thought was a great principal because we always talk about the idea of servant leadership, but then we don't actually ask the people that we serve what makes us effective.
And I asked you, but there was a rule for if we were going to let you write, you had to say you had a great principal. if you didn't have a, if you didn't have a great principal, you're out. Right. So, so not that we can't learn from, ineffective leaders or administrators, but I think we really wanted to show the exemplary practices.
Vicki Davis (01:20)
Oh yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
tweeted out about my principal and he was he's just amazing. I've got a great one.
George Couros (01:34)
Oh yeah.
Vicki Davis (01:37)
So you've got five pillars of effective school leadership. So you've taken all of this feedback. And actually, when I wrote my piece, I actually surveyed teachers and a whole bunch of students to do my little piece of, because I didn't want it to just be my perspective. I wanted like, what does everybody think? Right. Because I think that, not that they're anybody's perfect because nobody is, but we know the characteristics that make them great. So what are these five pillars?
George Couros (02:01)
Yeah, so we looked at a lot of different organizations around the world talking about what effective leaders, and they'll have six standards, eight standards, three standards, whatever. So we narrowed it down to five. And the five are relationship builder, continuous learner, talent cultivator, resource maximizer, and visionary. And part of the thinking behind these pillars is the idea that…
Allyson and I and the contributors, we never said like, there's only one way to be an effective principal.
Vicki Davis (02:33)
Mm -hmm.
George Couros (02:34)
In fact, we want to just kind of give you big ideas, but you as a school, as an organization, as a leader, you got to make this your own. So, you know, if you believe communication is very, very crucial to your work, then you put it in there. You actually talk about what does this look like? What does this mean to you? How do you know you're being effective? Because I'll tell you, I don't think there's any profession that hates being told what to do with more than I'm including myself in that, too. So it's kind of like, hey,
Vicki Davis (02:48)
Mm -hmm.
George Couros (03:02)
we really kind of said like, hey, let's, let's provide some ideas. some practices, some strategies, but at the end of the day, the people that are working with kids, they have to figure out their own solutions that are meaningful to this community. And I think that's why it's resonating with so many people
Vicki Davis (03:13)
Yeah. Did
George Couros (03:15)
And so the pillars we kind of are so like here's some big ideas, but you got to kind of fill in what this looks like to the people you serve.
Vicki Davis (03:22)
So did anything shock you?
George Couros (03:23)
You know, I don't know if anything shocked me as much as I wish I would have this book as a principal, just kind of hearing from the teacher perspectives. one of the things that I've always challenged people, especially, teachers is would you want to be a learner in your own classroom? And the thinking behind I remember being challenged once saying, well, like, you know, we should ask the question, like, would you want to be a teacher on the staff of a principal?
Vicki Davis (03:39)
Mm -hmm.
George Couros (03:50)
I thought, that's actually a really important piece. And so when a lot of people take that quote out of context is like, well, I would love to be in my classroom. I love the way you teach. And it's not that. That's not what I'm saying. It's like, do you actually understand the perspectives of the people you're serving? So it's not like, hey, 10 years ago, I would have loved me as a principal. Well, 10 years in education right now feels like 100. Just even the last two feels like 40. So.
Vicki Davis (04:14)
It does.
Yeah.
George Couros (04:18)
I think that that's something that was really powerful. but also there's some like timeless things here, too. the thing that I hear all the time is that principals bring out something better in their staff when they're really, really effective. So I ask people all the time.
Vicki Davis (04:33)
Mmm.
George Couros (04:37)
this question like, hey, how's your principal? And if they say to me like, oh, dude, let me do whatever I want. I'm like, no, that's not a good thing. and I understand, I understand the perspective because we want to be trusted. we want autonomy in our practice. But if someone just leaves you alone, I don't think you'll actually ever get better because of their leadership. it's kind of finding that balance of like, when you push someone when you back off.
Vicki Davis (04:42)
No, it's not.
So if you could travel back in time what are the key takeaways that you would tell yourself on day one based on what you've read in the book?
George Couros (05:07)
Well, the biggest thing is like probably know who you serve. And I think one of the big takeaways, Allyson I talked about this. I remember texting her is saying the visionary pillar has to be last. And most people will go into a school where their vision comes first, where they have a vision of what they're going to do, how they're going to do it. And I would honestly say that there's probably one of my issues when I first like I really, you know, had this.
idea of where we want to go to school. But as I got to know my people and realized like, Hey, a lot of the things that I'm really good at, they're not good at. And a lot of things that I need to be better at, they're really good at. And so we got to kind of compliment each other. We got to kind of figure this out because it shouldn't be just what, like this shouldn't be just an embodiment of George, but us as a community. So we talked about that idea of kind of slowing down, getting to know the people you serve, getting to know their strengths.
getting to know where they want to go and building that vision together, which is way easier. And I don't think I would have, I did that in my first year as a principal. I got better at it as it went because I realized that it's really hard to implement a vision that no one else is buying into. But if you build it, they're more likely to buy into it. So I think that was probably one of the biggest takeaways for me personally in writing this. And as we were kind of reading the chapters are going is like,
The best way to build a vision for a school is not come in there and mandate it on people, but build it together.
Vicki Davis (06:36)
Well, I've read so many things that say people first is the only way to go because people first does get you results. when you sit down and your principal actually knows what's going on in your life. And, while I always want excellence in my classroom, the way he handles me this month might be different than next month or when I'm planning my son's wedding or, whatever is going on, those relationships and those expectations. And, I think
That's what makes you feel valued when somebody actually knows you and works with you, because we've got a lot to juggle.
George Couros (07:10)
Yeah, it goes with the ebbs and flows of, you know, who who are as a person, right? I can't say that every day I had an education, I was having a good day, right? And there was a lot of bad days and I had people that really supported me when I struggled and I knew they would count on me. And I think a lot of times the worst days you have in education that's when you find out who you trust the most and who will be there for you the most. And then when you have those good days, they're way better because you want to go above and beyond for the people that supported you when things were going wrong. So yeah, that's something that.
Vicki Davis (07:17)
Yeah.
George Couros (07:37)
really kind of stuck out. I think the other part of it too that really connected with me was a lot of the best principals are very similar to the best teachers I used to think when I first started teaching the best teachers in the world, they could tell you October 12th at 1030 AM, here's where I'll be in math because they're going to get their kids there. And that's why, you know, they do their photocopying for the entire year, two weeks before and they were done. You'd never see them in that room again. And then I started to realize that I don't,
I don't even know these kids. How do I know where they're at? Maybe they're ahead of it, maybe they're behind it. And so it's the same thing, right? With leaders, you don't know who you serve, so get to know them and kind of figure out along the way with them. there's a lot of these characteristics I think are applicable to teachers as well. because the whole thing about education, it's about elevation. How do we elevate those we serve?
Vicki Davis (08:26)
Oh, I love that. teaching is, it's iterative and it's responsive. that's one reason I love EdTech is because it lets me do formative assessment so rapidly. But if we go back to the personal thing, now I've got such a great principal because like the other day I got something that was kind of shocking I had to deal with. And I was like, okay, I just, talked to him. I said, Hey, I just got something shocking and I have my difficult class coming up.
I'm just telling you that I may not be my best. And if these kids are not quite right, I might need to call you for some backup. And so he's in my room so often when I wrote about, my principal, principal Dyal I had been observed like five or six or seven times when I sent that tweet out in October and you sent me the message but because he's in my room so much,
It's not unusual and the kids don't go into performance mode because he's just there all the time. And it's not like I'm worried or stressed when he's there, he's there for good reasons. And then he's also there for what I would call backup when I need it. And it's just such a great way to be a principal. And honestly, I had never seen it before. And I'm sure in the book, you have a lot of stories of people who kind of had epiphanies when they got that great principal.
George Couros (09:46)
Well, the whole book starts off with me like talking about a principal that changed my life, which I didn't even know that there was such a thing, a great principal. I just thought it was a role. And when you get a great principal, you know. And one of the things that you said, I think was she did this well and I tried to emulate it. I was in classrooms all the time and that that to me is exactly what you said. I was the youngest person on staff when I became a principal at my school.
and just the title threw people off. People that were way better teachers than I ever was would get uptight when I'd walk in because they were used to what I call the superintendent's entourage. You know, people working in the board of trustees, totally a fake interaction. They're there for 10 minutes, you know, trying to get a feel of the classroom. But what kind of feel do you get? Everyone's kind of faking for 10 minutes. And so I went into the classroom all the time to make it.
Vicki Davis (10:18)
Mm -hmm.
George Couros (10:41)
just something that was expected and really to get to know the community. And this is one thing I used to say to my staff all the time, I'm not here to actually observe you. I'm here to observe the environment we're putting you in so that we can ensure that you have all of the things that you need. And I talk a lot about that in some of those situations where I saw something as a principal because I was in the classroom so often. And, Allyson does a great job of that as well. And I think that's something that's needed. If you're making decisions,
that impact classrooms, you have to be in classrooms and not once in a while, but all the time. And that to me is something that really kind of stuck out and was something that I did not realize mattered as much. And I liken this and you know how much I love basketball. I said when there's a really great similarity between great referees and great principals is that when they're bad, you notice them.
Like you know, the bad rep, right? Like you're like that ref, that ref, but when they're great, the game just goes on and everything's kind of flowing. And it doesn't, it doesn't mean they don't have an impact on the game, but you don't pay as much attention to them because they put everyone in a space to be successful. And that's that. I always think about that too, right? Like if you notice the principal all the time, probably not the best thing.
Vicki Davis (11:39)
Yeah
Yeah.
Well, and we're to the point where the kids are inviting him into class. Cause like, Hey, we're doing this presentation or we're doing this awesome project, or we want you to come see us do this. And so he'll say, Hey, your students have invited me to see this. I'm just letting you know I'm coming by. And, and that's just so great because he does focus on relationships with students and with teachers. And you know, isn't that what it's about? it's about changing people. So the book is.
What Makes a Great Principal? The Five Pillars of Effective School Leadership. So excited about this book. So excited to be included in this book. thanks for coming on the show.
George Couros (12:35)
I'm so proud you're a part of it because there's no one who's influencing me more in this space than yourself. You have just really inspired me throughout the years and I've learned a ton from you and I'm so glad that so many other people are going to learn from you as well.
Vicki Davis (12:49)
Well, and I will say this, I adore your keynotes because I think every time I've seen you keynote, I think it might be three times now, I laugh and I cry. it almost feels like you're not presenting that you're talking to me. So I do hope post pandemic to get back in your audience and hear you present again, because I just really enjoy those stories. So the respect is mutual and I appreciate you taking the time today to talk about this.
George Couros (13:16)
Thank you so much, Vicki
George Couros is a worldwide leader in the area of innovative teaching, learning, and leading, and he has a focus on innovation as a human endeavor. Most importantly, he is a proud father and husband. His belief that meaningful change happens when you first connect to people’s hearts is modeled in his writing and speaking. In his 20-plus years in the field of education, he has worked at all levels of school, from K-12 as a teacher, technology facilitator, and school and district administrator, and is currently an Adjunct Instructor with the Graduate School of Education at the University of Pennsylvania. George is also the author of the books The Innovator’s Mindset; Empower Learning, Unleash Talent, and Lead a Culture of Creativity, Innovate Inside the Box, the “Because of a Teacher” series as well as his latest book “What Makes a Great Principal.” George is also host of the popular education podcast “The Innovator’s Mindset.”